Manisha here,

I really want to get into this discussion. Looks, that's what you are talking about, right? For me, I like a man to be dark and tall. I believe the darker the better. Is there anybody else who feels like I do?

By Rajani on Thursday, December 10, 1998 - 06:51 am:

Oh my God!! So much of hatred in this discussion. Simmer it down folks!!

By Pk on Thursday, December 10, 1998 - 07:16 am:

Ok people NO need to go so intense. Take it easy. Brother Hathoda, you are hammering it down on our poor Mr India - too hard. I guess the piece is written as humor and taking humor seriously can be rather painful.

I agree with Manisha. I like tanned people.
That is the optimum color for the skin. I lived on the mediterranean coast for a decade and saw how millions of sun-starved Europeans came on the coast and burnt themselves to tan and tan.. and many even put them under solarium - a torture chamber like machine - to look tanner-than-you, just to look nicer...!

I think the overall balanced health is more desirable than the external beauty.

Sound Health, a soft voice, well kept hair, good manners, preferably slender structure, length is not important and a lovely heart, emancipated mind and a compassionate soul make a person likable and beautiful.

I guess beautiful people without a compassionate heart and a functional brain are like cold work of art. One cant live with a work of art.

An ancient Arab proverb says: He who has health has hope, and he who has hope has everything.

When one is in Real deep love, the soul not only sees beauty in the loved one but the whole world appears to be heavenly. I think that is the real beauty.

By Hathoda on Thursday, December 10, 1998 - 08:15 pm:

My apology to Mr. India and Mr. Punjab. Sorry, brother I took it serious.

By Anonymous on Thursday, December 10, 1998 - 11:08 pm:

Hi all,
I am anonymous from Dec 8.
I just spent half an hour posting a message to Mr. Anonymous's response to me and it got lost. Boo hoo. If this message gets repeated somewhere, my apologies.
I don't know what Mr. Anon is talking about. What hypocrisy is he pointing out? I don't know many people who happily sleep with total strangers. About Indian women, help me out here Mr. PK, Mr. Hathoda, all others, isn't there something about samskaras that allow us to marry in an arranged system and work at it through faith and belief. NOTE: I am not advocating the system, just saying that such a mindset exists among thousands of Indian men and women: hence the marrying strangers etc.
Secondly, thank the lord we don't only have 2 optins: one shall stay nameless, the other being Mike Tyson!
Thirdly, I don't think trust and friendship b/w Indian men and women can be built up by stereotyping and hostility to the entire sex and spewing venom at them like Mr. Anon.
I certainly did not intend to hurt the feelings of my Indian brothers, just offered another pt of view to Mr. India's, who "seems" to have appreciated it. My respects to you mom and sis Mr. Anon.
Finally, an unrelated question for MR. INDIA.:
Just curious about your profession. Since you had some amusing asides ag. desi engineers, I wondered about your profession--honest-to-god curiosity, no ulterior motive.

By Mr. India on Friday, December 11, 1998 - 10:39 pm:

This post goes to Mr. Hathoda!!!!

Dear Mr. Hathoda, First of all your apology has been accepted. YOU THE MAN!!......but still for some reason......I do feel like answering to your post especially when you have told me to marry a blonde......I don't know what part of this world you came from Bud....but first of all.....to me it seems like that the clouds of narrow mindness have really surrounded your mind. If you look at the original post I have made, the only thing I have criticized is the way Indians go for wife Hunting. It is a fact that most of the Indians who go to India to get married, or even here in North America, they look at girl's external beauty and don't care to bother to learn about her. If the girl is so called 'UGLY', in this fake world, her photograph wouldn't even make it through the filters of the eyes of guy's parents.
And even if it does, then guy would turn her down, unless he is really desperate to get married. Now, lets assume that you know a female who is very close to you for example your daughter or sister. And this female doesn't meet the standards of Indian Beauty, but she has all other qualities. How would you feel if a guy turns her down just based on her looks without even considering any other of her qualities? And why only women have to go through this? The whole goal of my posting the first joke was to target Indian guys, but not be disrespectful to Indian sisters.

And now as far as your suggestion to me for marrying a blonde and getting divorced is concerned......first of all not all the blondes are bad and not all the Indians are good. What you are doing here is making assumptions and stereotyping women of a particualr race based on their appearance and some things you have heard. Making assumptions and stereotyping are two logical fallacies. Such arguments are considered invalid. I think first of all you need to learn how to argue, may be go to your local University or Community college and take a few classes on philosophy so that you can learn how to argue.

Second, I don't know where are you located right now, I came from India 8 years ago, when I was 19 years old. Therefore, I have lived there long enough to know what my culture is and how I am supposed to live my life. Just because I bashed on the way people get arranged doesn't mean that
arranged marriages are bad. But it isn't the best way to get married either. If it were, then why would so many people get divorced even though they were arranged? I have heard of instances where guys got married to a girl just because their parents wanted and I'm talking about guys who were born and raised in India...and they never lived even for one day with their wives.

Now lets talk about getting married to a blonde and getting divorced afterwards....do you really think that if one marries a blonde will be divorced for sure? Are all the blondes are SLUTS? If you think yes, then where did your Indian way of thinking and respecting women go? Or is your respect for women is limited only to the Indian women? Have you actually done some sort of extensive research to prove your theory that if I get married to a blonde (eventhough I won't be) I will get divorced within six months? Are blondes born with a label on their forehead which says "BORN TO BE DIVORCED" ?


And as far as, saying that a girl would marry a guy just for the GREEN CARD, I think lot of people do that. Thanks to the arrange marriage system people force their daughters to marry guys who are 10-15 years older, drunkards and worthless peices of shit. And the proud advocates of ARRANGED MARRIAGE like yourself, put their own beautiful wives into a beautiful Saaree and go to attend such Reception parties, where people are proudly boasting about how their son or friend has robbed a cradle.

Another thing What makes you think that I'm extremely frustrated person? Did I bring my basket of frustrations and unloaded it at your door?


My friend like I said, you have a long way to go. If you really want to have some intelligent arguements, then learn how to argue. Because so far most of the arguements I have seen, represent your lack of ability to think rationally.
My best wishes to you and once again, from deep down my heart I have accpeted YOUR APOLOGY.

By Mr. India on Friday, December 11, 1998 - 11:08 pm:

To Annoynomous from Dec 10th and Dec 8th.

My profession: A proud desi engineer -;)

By Logical Mayur on Sunday, December 13, 1998 - 10:16 am:

All this "looking for a pretty and blah blah wife" reminds me of something. When I was "in the shaadi market" (some indians refer looking for a wife as that), i got turned down coz i was not making enough money. I never got through the "filters" of the girls' parents. When I finally did start making decent money, guess what.....one of the families that had turned me down, proposed.
So I said ok and got to the point where they left me alone with the girl. Well, she was honest and said she was aware of most of the other girls that didnt work out for me. So I asked her if it was really the money part that resulted in me being turned down , especially by her family. Her answer was both straight forward and diplomatic. She said something of the sort : If you had a daughter /sister, wouldnt u want her to live a comfortable life? I told her even a janitor in usa is comfortable.....but her defination of comfortable was different.

So I understand the whole thing, and yes , if i had a daughter or sister i would make sure her husband makes decent money. Unfortunately, "comfortable" and "beauty" are both relative. An indian farmer's daughter will be definately comfortable with a "government employee" whereas an american doctor's daughter may or may not be comfortable with even an engineer who has a masters degree.

Similarly, for some guys here, beauty is inner; whereas for others it is external. So its all personal opinions. Heck, why are we fighting then? If someone wants to marry a blonde, go ahead. If someone wants to have a "swayamvar" (line-up) of pretty gals in india , go!!! The problem is both ways.

I think its coz indian love marriages are kinda no-no. So we dont look for love, happiness, etc etc or think : how happy can this guy/gal keep me. All we think is : how much he makes / how good looking she is. But its changing. I am begining to see indians marry for love and all that hindi-filum stuff happening. So its good....one day you all will be happy :) Maybe you will see the results in your kids.
Peace.

By Chief Editor (Admin) on Sunday, December 13, 1998 - 10:48 am:

We ask all friends NOT to use colorful nor abusive language for others. Please understand we are not here for personal battles nor anyone is interested in this sort of dialogue so please respect others and DO NOT use this forum to spill frustrations or talk off topic things. Thanks!
Nobody cares who wrote the humour stuff but the idea was to discuss a subject which concerns lots of people. Right?

By Anonymous on Wednesday, December 16, 1998 - 04:59 am:

I am Mr.Anon of Dec 9th replying to Madam.Anon

What irked me the most was YOUR sterotyping of Indian men. Here are some excerpts from your own posting dated Dec 8 th :

"What do good-looking Indian men
generally do eh? Sit at home and make chappatis?"

"And just for the record, how many Indian men are
interested in fitness and keeping in shape?"

"What about men's beer
bellies, slouchy postures, spindly legs and other unmentioned underdeveloped parts????"


and on and on about Indian men. Stop sterotyping
"Indian men" and concentrate on the issues, as much as you would concentrate on making Chappattis.

My point is simple : Just imagine if you and I have been married thru an arranged marriage (God pls forbid even the thought) just imagine what would have happened to my life and your life?
$%&*

I'll probably be paying alimony to you by now..

My point is pretty much the same : stop sterotyping either sexes and learn to respect each other.

Let's have a modern version of the arranged marriage. Let them arrange it, but there should be a heart to heart talk or getting to know phase and a cool down phase (so that either parties can think clearly) before tying the knot.

I want to add another twist to this discussion : Is arranged marriages are the problem or is it REALLY the stigmas/prejudices are the problem??

Let me give an example : The girl and boy like each other but the parents didn't like the dowry amount so they create a ruckus.The question that begs here is - would this marriage have been succesful had the dowry issue was not there!

I am thankful to Mr.India on writing the note..It is very valid timely and thoughtful note..

By Anonymous on Wednesday, December 16, 1998 - 11:45 pm:

Mr Anon of Dec 9: this is a response to your most recent post.
Frankly, I have more faith in my stars and the gods than to think that a marriage arranged or otherwise b/w an individual such as yourself and myself were even remotely possible. so let's be happy about that.
Secondly, I don't think you understood the context of my response. Strangely, while you carry on your very prejudiced rant, Mr. India, who wrote the original message seems to have entirely understood the point of my message. Let me make one final attempt to explain it to you. My response was meant as a "corrective" to Mr. India's emphasis on women's deceiving, manipulating powers and their twisted motives etc. I wanted to show that it was not a particular sex that had all these negative qualities, but social training and expectations and that is faulty in the case of BOTH men and women. To blame good looking women for using their looks is to forget that good looking men do it too. How come you missed this point entirely? Because you are already biased against a "woman's" point of view. I don't think this discussion needs to go on any further. We are saying the same thing essentially, about social evils and all that, but you obviously can't see it in your great outrage at having your gender attacked.

By Anonymous on Thursday, December 17, 1998 - 04:58 am:

Madam Anon

Let us assume for a moment that Mr.India was biased against women, you should have addresed this issue..on the other hand you have ranted about "Indian men" ..if Mr.India is not justified about his one sided view's why should you be justified about your one sided views?

Looks like you are new to the net..just because Mr.India may or maynot have agreed with your view doesn't mean a thing..This is www and I am an Indian man whom you have accused so you have to own up for it atleast in a nameless way. If you aren't happy with his have a private chat with Mr.India and never ever use global terms like "Indian men" did this and did that -on the net- this will come back to haunt you.

I am just curious.. if you are so angry about Indian men you should probably not marry an Indian guy or you should divorce the Indian guy whom you may have married. I am actually trying to do a favour for that poor Indian guy.

Replying to you seems the same as replying to Saddam Hussein..hence I want to end this also. The rant never stops.

With your replies you have reasonably convinced me that it is YOU who is perpetrating the "we" vs "they" attitude and my views about Indian women haven't changed one bit.

A couple of days ago you were ranting about "spindly legs and other unmentioned underdeveloped parts????" and now you are starting to rant about "your faith in stars and the gods"

Saddam Hussain pls take over...

By Sunaina on Thursday, December 17, 1998 - 10:30 am:

I think we should now change the topic to something more sensible rather than talk about what Mr.India wrote and Madam Anon and Mr. Anon and stuff. You all are worse than kids!!

By Nikki on Thursday, December 17, 1998 - 04:01 pm:

I am basically responding to you all

YEAH DEFFO - IT'S ALRIGHT FOR MEN TO BE UGLY, FAT SLEEP AROUND ETC .. BUT IF THE GIRL IS HALF AS BAD SHE GETS LABELLED. I AM NOT SAYING IT'S RIGHT WHAT SOME INDIAN BLOKES GET UP TO AND I DON' WANT TO PROMOTE IT AND DO IT MYSELF - BUT YOU LOT NEED TO WAKE UP AND LEARN SOME MANNERS OTHERWISE I WILL GET UNCLE FIXIXT TO SORT YOU OUT...SERIOUSLY THOUGH I MYSELF HAVE A GOOD FIGURE BUT AM NOT INTENT IN PUTTING IT ON DISPLAY. BECAUSE I FEEL COMFORTABLE IN COMBATS AND HOODED TOPS AND YOU ASIAN MEN ESP THE MUSLIM ONES WOULD STARE ME DOWN - LIKE I AM SOME KIND OF OBJECT. I AM NO OBJECT - I AM EDUCATED AND IN THE PROCESSING OF OBTAINING A DEGREE, REFINED AND LIKE TO HAVE A LAUGH AT THE SAME TIME.
I do agree that we indian gerls are attractive - because we are a generation who look after ourselves - we execise and take it easy on the ghee. The indian boys are also quite tall and indeed muscular.

By woman_lover on Friday, December 18, 1998 - 04:22 am:

Why is an Indian woman's hip area is so huge, is it because they don't exercise or because they eat too much or what.I see oriental women control their hips quite well.What's the recipie??

By Nikki on Friday, December 18, 1998 - 05:12 pm:

generally older indian women are fatter as are the men, due to excessive intakes of ghee and lack of execise - or i could turn it around and say they spend all day stuck behind their sweet shop counter then slumped in front of the 100" box watching 'zee tv' - most indians are filthy rich and will not walk any where - that's another reason why many are fat....But we younger ones are quite fit and attractive so get your facts right.

By Saddam on Saturday, December 19, 1998 - 01:04 am:

Dear Editor

I don't think I should save my home..you should save yours..Look at the posting by Nikki with an "F" word..If you can let that be posted you can post any damn thing..

Have a set of rules and apply them across the board. Thank You.

Most people think a Saddam alias implies an Iraqi or a Muslim, quite to the contrary I am Hindu..

I am beginning to notice in this thread that people assume somebody's gender just my looking at their "alias", to say the least this is wrong.

By Editor (Admin) on Saturday, December 19, 1998 - 01:58 am:

Dear Saddam, Nikki, Anon, Ms Anon and other friends

We know that you are writing this pseudonym as jest yet i have good news. We have finally "impeached" this debate and clipped 10 messages plus censured part of Ms. Nikki's comments generalising a gender.

Ok guys the final call, I have now permission from moderator to delete any message which attacks any person, community or gender using foul language.

Debate must be healthy and remember it is not a contest nor dual. You should "communicate" by avoiding insulting language.
Dear Saddam ji, appreciate your comments to alert me.
You dont sound a Saddam type person.
Ms. Anon please kindly dont take any comments personally and dont react!. Let us go on to the issue....
To remind you all, the discussion is:
Beauty : Physical or Internal

By Anonymous on Saturday, December 19, 1998 - 02:17 am:

Thanks dear editor for your timely impeachment although i dont support republicans for impeaching the presi.
I ask you what are your views on Beauty?
Do you look for a person's inner or exteriour beauty?

By Saddam on Saturday, December 19, 1998 - 02:40 am:

Dear Editor

Good job on enforcing some discpline across the board and Thank You.

While advocating every one not to attack others you have verbally attacked ME! by posting :
".....and Mr Saddam you are already being bombarded so go save your home"

I suggest you clip this statement also

The decision to post a message or not on your BB (Bulletin Board) is entirely yours, the decision to attack that person, as an Editor, is not yours. You are always welcome to attack the issues that I am talking about but not the person/individual.

It would be STUPID to expect everybody to accept my messages, and it would also be STUPID to go save my house just because I am bombarded..

Let's see how fair you are!!!

By Editor (Admin) on Saturday, December 19, 1998 - 03:04 am:

Brother Saddam
I wrote that as a joke on the new attack on Irak just like you are using Saddam's name. It was NOT meant for you as a person but for the Iraqi man. I guess this is called allusion in literature.
Profusely apologized by any means if you consider that as a personal attack. Nontheless respecting your wise view i have deleted my message. We all learned a great deal from your smart assertions on Indian men's views.
I am NOT here to supress any opinion and this is not 'my' board but for all people related to India and South Asia in any way.
You are most welcome to express your views but precisely from your message i got the idea that it is time to request for not going too personal etc.
A personal request dont use Saddam's name as you are not a dictator. You may as well use some other nicer or more beautiful name! (if you insist on using Saddam expect people to joke around..i guess)Anyway thanks for bearing me.
I apologize to anyone if i said anything hurtful. I do deserve a good beating,in any case.

By Sweetie on Saturday, December 19, 1998 - 05:09 am:

All I can say is "Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder". Don't you all agree?!

By Lotus on Tuesday, December 22, 1998 - 04:17 am:

Editor Ji Namaste

Thank you for your kind words, I am heading your
thoughtful advise and the original Saddam has now become Lotus!

I thought Saddam was a good disguise..but God everybody was lining up their guns at me.

Now to post my message..

On the beauty is in the eye of the beholder I have a real life story that I am narrating here..

This is TRUE and happened at my work here in the USA..I have an Indian girl who works with me, she is pretty ugly by any standards. Now pls all my Indian sisters don't pounce on me saying that I am putting down the woman folks and that I am a chavinist, etc.etc..I am telling you the truth.

She knows that I am married and we were talking one day about her future. I was asking her if she is planning to get married soon. She sadly replied to me that since she was not good looking, it would be difficult for her to get married in India,because most Indian guys would reject her. She also said she didn't want to become a burden on her aged parent's as well.I asked her what she was going to do..She added that she is dating an American guy and if all goes well she would get married to him. This discussion happened about a year ago.

Couple of weeks back, she invited me and my family to her wedding to this guy. I had a shock of my life when I went to the wedding and saw this guy, for the first time, in person. He was really good looking, almost like Tom Cruise!!, if not better. I am positive that this guy saw some inner beauty in her..It couldn't have been her external beauty.

Now, folks I am not trying to put down anybody..
I just narrated a true incident that's all.
Since this is a fairy emotional issue, across genders, I'll leave it for readers to draw their own conclusions. Comments, criticsims on the issues involved are always welcome.

By Manisha on Tuesday, December 22, 1998 - 06:49 am:

Manisha here,

Wow, Lotus what a story! I can not imagine that she would think no one in all of India would marry her. I think she had a very limited view of Indian men. To me it is sad to think a man from other culture would treat you better than someone from your own. You know sometimes you make happen in your life what you think. If you believe no Indian man would want you then that is probably what will happen. I have seen plenty of people who I would have considered unattractive and they were married. (It is true beauty is in the eye of the beholder.) I wonder how they did it? Could it have been that they believed that they would find someone Indian? I like very dark or black skinned men. That is what I find attractive. For me, that is a handsome and strong looking man. I am sure there are many people who would not find that attractive but, I do. Well, I just had to ad my opinion to the discussion.

By Editor (Admin) on Tuesday, December 22, 1998 - 06:57 am:

Dear friend Lotus
Namaste!
Thats beautiful indeed. Congratulations for changing your name to one of the most beautiful and subliminal flowers. Lotus is a great symbol of wisdom in India although Chinese also eat it as a vegetable. Now dont take that personally please (just :)..hope you have a good sense of humour J (which also leads us to a conclusion that all names have deeper meanings)
Thanks for the anecdote on the girl who lacked self-esteemed. As Pk says the beauty of soul is more permanent!
As Manisha is a devotee of Krishna and bt way Shiva is blue. Another conclusion that color of skin can enhance or add to beauty!

By Alisha on Tuesday, December 22, 1998 - 07:04 am:

Dear Editor,

You are so funny!!....****laugh***..Now you go ahead talking about Chinese eating lotus bulbs!!!...

By Lotus on Tuesday, December 22, 1998 - 09:21 pm:

Tell me one thing that the chinese don't eat..giggle...It is good to note that the editors are indeed awake..I for a while thought that it was going like a runaway train

By Anonymous on Tuesday, December 22, 1998 - 09:46 pm:

It will keep the editor's busy trying to comment on each and every alias they come across on these postings...Thanks Lotus for bringing up a true story..let's try and keep the discussion to "Beauty : Physical or Internal" for people who have a routine habit of straying from the main topic.

By Editor (Admin) on Wednesday, December 23, 1998 - 02:40 am:

Dear Lotus

Dont expect any of us to pick on any aliases.
Names are just words, it is the feeling behind the words which matters i guess. I see good heart and feeling behind your name. Dont worry about Chinese they eat all which moves and sprouts. Keep the spirits up brother!

By Logical on Wednesday, December 23, 1998 - 09:13 am:

In response to the message from Lotus on this ugly girl marrying Tom Cruise's stunt man :

First I would like to point you to a message from "Kumar" on the sub section : finding a spouse.
It will make a point : One can look for a spouse in their own community for only a certain period of time. Continous rejection results in giving up.

Perhaps, that was the case in the example you gave. Its sad , as Manisha points out , that one has to feel that other races are more receptive than one's own race.

I belive that the root cause is that most indians , especially the guys , still believe that beauty is external. If you look around this site, you will notice many messages (such as the one from Mr. India) that display this notion. And if thats the way our guys feel, what do you think the so called "ugly" girls can do?

Similarly, (again, referring to Kumar's message), if girls are looking for doctors / engineers, what are the indian guys who are Burger King managers supposed to do? So , the conclusion is : yes, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

1. If an "ugly"indian girl feels a tom cruise stuntman is beautiful or vice versa, go for it.
2. If a average looking indian girl feels that a doc or engr is beautiful, go for it.
3. If an indian guy feels no one except madhuri dixit (movie star) is beautiful, he should go try marrying her....(just symbolization here).

See the big picture now?

By Mythili on Wednesday, December 23, 1998 - 04:52 pm:

Manisha,
Most Indian men are very limited in what they look for in a spouse. Good looks is one of them. In India an average looking girl has a very remote chance of getting married.

By Manisha on Thursday, December 24, 1998 - 07:16 pm:

Manisha here,

Well, Mythilia the word most leads me to believe
that there are a lot of Indian men who will not
marry unattractive women. I guess there are a lot
of single unattractive women in India, do I get
your point? All I can say is I agree to disagree.
From my own, experience I find that hard to
believe. I would be interested in reading other
people's opinions.

By Hathoda on Thursday, December 24, 1998 - 08:18 pm:

Hi Manisha,

I agree with your point. I do not know even a single women in India who had no offer for marriage. Here in USA it is little different and unattractive girls may not get an offer from Doctor or Engineer but an average guys are available. I remember unfortunate bachelors so called, "SHADA" in India have big problem in finding women for marriage. Those "shada’s" have to even pay dowry to get married. "Shada’s" are treated very badly by the married couples. Married people are sometimes scared of calling them home for the sake of "What people will say". So they are very desperate to get married, and they are willing to go to any extent to get married. I mean there are guy’s looking for any type of women. My opinion a little bit Desi but practical I guess ……….

By Logical on Friday, December 25, 1998 - 09:24 am:

Wow....or should I say woe...I never heard about these shadas...Thats a new one to me, guys paying dowry? I guess its a good idea...if affirmative action /reverse discrimination can work in the USA, maybe reverse dowry will work in India.

As for indian guys looking for pretty girls, here's my comments.

Many a times an ugly girl in india is aware that she is ugly, so she jumps to the conclusion that no one will marry her, so she tries to make her self "marketable" (sorry if thats the wrong word to use) in other ways. For example, many matrimonial ads that are run in local newspapers in india will include words such as "government service", "MBBS", "senior programmer", etc . You will find these words used more often in ads that do not include the word "beautiful", "pretty" etc.

Unfortunately, many guys, especially guys in the USA, want everything an indian girl from india offers, plus they want her to be some sort of professional. So if they feel they are at least 50% compatible, and everything else is okay (dowry amount, family background, or whatever they are looking for) PLUS if the girl is capable of making 60k to 100k in the USA, BINGO.....they will marry her even if she is ugliness defined.

Perhaps , it works for the guys that way too...I have seen extremely extremely extremely pretty girls marry a pot bellied rich businessman, a bald doctor, and a programmer with magnifying glasses on his eyes.

I guess thats why many parents emphasize education. Because human society seems to respect money more than anything, in many cases. Its sad, but true. I am not saying that there is no more importance to compatability and all that, just that money wins...most of the times.

You will be surprised how many high school graduate girls are turned down even though they are pretty. I guess what Mythili is refering to is that if someone was ugly, poor, unable to afford dowry, AND high school grad, she is facing a dead end.

By G OF INDIA on Friday, December 25, 1998 - 06:22 pm:

To every indian in INDIA and USA:
"LOGICAL would henceforth RULE"
The following law will take effect immediately and anyone found in violation would be shot dead.
From now on, after serious consultations with American government, we have decided that there is no need of American embassy in India or Indian embassy in D.C. Also, all the (stupid) indians will no longer make their own decisions. Everybody should note: "All the decisions henceforth would be made by LOGICAL. LOGICAL is now the sole and ultimate authority which would decide-who should marry who, and who should come to America and who should not. Every marriage should first get LOGICAL's approval- otherwise it would be deemed annulled." Especially the following rules (by LOGICAL)would take effect immediately for all marriages of Inidan guys in US trying to find match back home.
(1) They would have to pay a heavy penalty for not marrying the desi girls in US. Amount would be decided by LOGICAL.
(2) The desi girl should be as poor as possible- these should be easy to find in most indian villages or city slums. Otherwise LOGICAL would find one for you.
(3) The girls should not be educated more than high school-the lesser the education the better it is!
It is the 'responsibilty' of the desi guy to teach her when she finally comes here.
(3) The desi guys would have to pay a hefty dowry to the girls parents- atleast equal in amount to their annual salary here in US (or else decided by LOGICAL).
(4) The girl should be as ugly as possible. LOGICAL would obviously decide the compatibility of the bride and the groom.
(5) The girl would not be allowed to work when she comes to US. The boy has all the responsibility obviously. She would be provided a computer with internet connection, so that she can infest all the desi bulletin boards (like LOGICAL) with her own bright thoughts.
(6) MOST IMPORTANT- The GIRL should NOT be a VIRGIN. -The more she has been "around" the better (may be not as much as LOGICAL). Any desi guys looking for VIRGIN girls would be HANGED till DEATH. Such old and stupid traditional BS can obviously not be allowed by her majesty-the LOGICAL!!

By Logical on Friday, December 25, 1998 - 08:30 pm:

To Mr.so-called GOVERNMENT OF INDIA:

ha ha ha....boy, i was wondering if I would laugh on christmas. Seems like I brushed some shoulders here, stepped on some toes and probably kicked some butt.

By the way, Logical is a "he" , so its HIS MAJESTY, not her majesty. The message was really funny, but it just shows how pissed off we are when someone says, why don't guys give dowry and marry non virgins or non professional women.

This is truly an example of WHY we are not accepting the truth.

I am sorry if I sounded like I was imposing the LAWS here, but I just wrote what I have seen, especially around this site and many others. Discussions on virginity, dowry and all that make one realize how deep the problems are. Matrimonial ads on this site and many others specifically ask for professional girls.

Is something wrong with the clock on this site or did government of India wake up at 6.52am to respond to me (perhaps just returned home from a nite club?)

Peace buddy

By Editor (Admin) on Friday, December 25, 1998 - 09:31 pm:

Dear Friends
You are requested NOT to use in future alias like Govt of India etc. We will delete any such postings instantly. We also request you to moderate your language and no one should be attacked personally.

By Logical on Saturday, December 26, 1998 - 04:33 am:

Editor:
I would like to personally thank you for the comment on using offensive nicks such as Government of India.

As for me writing provocative remarks, I agree, yes they provoke some serious thoughts. However, I do not understand how they are derogratory. Could you please be specific? (please, please, tell me, its very important that i IMPROVE my communication skills) .I read my latest 2 messages and nowhere did I say or imply that everyone should henceforth follow my suggestions.

And if my messages are chosen to be in some other magazine, I am sure that you or some other editor of this site agrees with me and puts them there. After all , if someone came up here and typed a song, would you include that in another magazine? Don't you agree?

I am sure that you have noted that on some of my contributions, people have agreed with me, especially on "hot" topics such as virginity. So, it seems that there is more than one person who thinks the way I do. Besides, I begin my sentences with : I feel, I guess, I think....which means they are nothing but opinions, and if someone disagrees, they can correct me. I am known to have changed after Manisha corrected me when I was Mayur.

This is the second time I have noted something. People are writing emails to you against me, and you don't want your subscribers to go away. So I will try to restrain myself from further postings and especially provocative postings. If I post anything, I will try to agree with most people , so that you don't lose subscribers. Even if it costs what i think is the truth.

P.S. : Could you please ask the "7 people" to search for derogatory words in messages around here? Perhaps some attention needs to be paid to messages from DEC 17th, several people using words such as "deffo", "sleep around", four letter words begining with "F". WOE....talk about derogatory.

If I don't like someone's postings, could it be possible that I gather 7 friends and complain? You worry about your subscribers, I am concerned with what you and the people on the board think. Can you tell me your personal opinion? Do you personally feel my messages are wrong? How?

By Hari on Saturday, December 26, 1998 - 08:12 am:

Dear Logical

I am writing on behalf of our regular editor who is on holiday. Most of your messages have nothing wrong. See this is a very public space. You wont believe that only one out of about 500 visitors write a message as most others dont usually write however many of them are frequent ones.
Consider this as a public party, where we all come to think, to review and to comment on possible remedies to all our supposed and real problems and issues. Indian community worldwide is very dispersed and scattered and this is a humble platform for uniting people who otherwise wont find a way to communicate.
This is one of fewest sites, which is seen by people in 'key' areas in India too in addition to the overseas diaspora around the world.
The only request is for you to be YOU but a bit more selective with your words. Another important thing is that MANY of our readers and participants are extremely busy people and they would like to scan each message and they usually skip very long ones. So we ask all our readers to be as brief as possible to communicate better.

You are most welcome and you are as much part of our global community as anyone else. Consider that most of the people are more or less mature like you yet some very young people also frequent and they at times may react strongly however we should consider all expressions and attempt to guide as much as possible. A healthy and educated discussion is possible when we can hear all views and exchange ours without making anyone uneasy. That is possibly a successful dialogue!

By Logical on Saturday, December 26, 1998 - 08:29 am:

Hari,
Thanks a lot. I like you more than the regular editor. You are a cool person. You put the point across in the nicest possible way.

I will try to be ME and at the same time use eloquent words. I wish I was as good of a communicator as you.

Thanks.

By Lotus on Tuesday, December 29, 1998 - 05:05 am:

Oh Boy..I step out for the Christmas weekend and all hell breaks loose. First of all I didn't see anything wrong with Logical's posting (unless something got deleted) ..Govt of India I know you were trying to make some valid points but all was lost in your eagerness to attack Logical..

Folks pls don't attack the person..like hell attack the issues.

I agree with Mythili..that if a girl is "average", coming from an "average" family she has very little chance of getting married. Hathoda saab,
you got to be kidding when you said all Indian women get married..

We have so far touched on ugly girls only, It is just the tip of the iceberg..I know of girls who cannot get married becuase they had a leg injury at birth or something like that..believe me most guys and their parents wouldn't even look at such girls..let alone marry her.

The unfortunate thing about the Indian system is where is the time to understand the inner beauty of a girl/boy?. In arranged marriages the girl looks at the boy and the boy looks at the girl, that's it. They rarely talk with each other. So the only way to make any meaningful decision is using beauty as a guide..Correct me if I am wrong..

By Joseph on Tuesday, December 29, 1998 - 07:33 pm:

Hi All,
Self - Criticism (meaning on Indian culture) is healthy as long as it is constructive and not a distructive one. In any debate, there are at least more than one point of views. Otherwise it is not called a debate. So there will be disagreements and reactions to each statement being made. One way we can keep this constructive is:

By respecting views even if we do not agree. So when we offer rebutal, be concious not to make it personal. Same goes for the messanger. And when we inverdently do, nothing more meaningful than to offer an apology. We can not demand or force apologies. Apologies are like gifts, you leave at the door and let the receiver decide to accept it or not. And after that, move on without hard feelings :-)

Personally, I think Logical has some good points to make, specially in the areas where traditionally it is considered a taboo to talk about. Thought provocking staements will always draw attacks and critisim. At least it takes a courage to say what you believe in. Internet debates are a big blessing for culture like us because we can express opinions anonymously which we may not express publically.

And a request to Editor:
Would it be possible to define rules you have outlined under "want to say something?..." more specifically? This may help.

By SIMON on Thursday, December 31, 1998 - 05:52 am:

Inner beauty is most important. However, I do realize that it is difficult for lot of people to understand until they go through a bad experience. And of course, it is true both for men and women. Just fair color does not mean that person is fair in nature as well..and so, people take it easy and when yïu marry, look for inner beauty not external..

By P K Kapila on Saturday, January 09, 1999 - 09:51 pm:

Dear friends
One always feel very uneasy about the typical Indian functions of 'shows' called beauty contesôs. This strange phenomenon is mostly very INDIAN among all ethnic communities of the world living the USA. In Los Angeles and many other major US cities, certain dubious Indian 'associatiïns' (there are zillions of them) organise almost every few months some Ms. and Mr. contests.
I know this from aíple coverage in local Indian newspapers which carry pages of reports of such events. Some call them fashion shows. There is hardly any fashion designers involved. It is supposedely a mere sho÷ of bodies.


I find this custom a bit mindless and strange as with that we are communicating our low self esteem aíong communities.
Are these contests for finding Beauty or a show of some bored individuals.

I would like to know your kind opinions.

One can understand a fashion industry show where one can see the display of 'few' fashion 'designers' (they are supposed to be dress designing tailors but the commercial media of Europe calls them fashion designers) - new cuts and patterns but what is the LOGIC behind beauty contests and shows?

I know that it is a very dåbatable issue - these international and universal beauty contests - as they are nothing but just another over hyped commercial ðroduct of some clever individuals. Running beauty contests and shows have become a major industry and i find it disgusting to see the parades of bare bodies and to spice it up the totally stupid 'quiz show' dissimulating to demonstrate that it is a contest of brained beauty etc. Isnt it pathetic?
This was never part of Indian culture but lately our certain show business have found this an extra way of making bucks.

I can really understand and appreciate the contests and shows of best flowers, bulbs or fruits and vegetables - often organised in rural areas - to attract new buyers but contests for human bodies is a slap on our face. Because we are being manipulated to believe that

But my real surprise and disgust come from these little unknown contests and shows organised by Indian communities in major cities where mainly young teenagers are chosen by some stupid jury as Mr or Ms Long Beach or Los Angeles etc.
This is a brainless activity i understand but i do not find it entertaining it either.

It actually promotes body show and a very subtle sense of guilt among thousands of teenagers who go to watch these strange shows.


Please give me your sincere opinion...
It is time we talk about this.

By Logical on Sunday, January 10, 1999 - 08:33 am:

PK,
I personally feel (personal opinion) that these fashion shows in Europe are made / done to show the latest designs by major designers. Of course, there is show of bodies, beauty etc. But like you said...."over hyped commercial product"....thats exactly what it is. After all, if a person chewed tobacco all his life, would his teeth become sparkling white after using XYZ toothpaste ? Of course not. But all the TV commercials seem to guarantee a job or a date that the model gets by using their toothpaste.

So, its all put in one nice word = marketing. Some market clothes using bodies, others market toothpaste using Kapil Deo as a model. Whats the big deal?

As for all those shows in LA etc, yes, I think its wrong upto a certain extent. But then Karishma Kapoor and almost everyone in the Raj Kapoor family wouldn't have become a movie star if they weren't trained at a young age. So, it depends on what the parents want their kids to accomplish when they become adults. Besides, the kids are enjoying all thru it. Its a free country, and all this stuff really doesn't cause much harm.

I remember seeing the foto of a Mr. Universe of weightlifting, a pakistani guy in austin. He was from UT i THINK. But, i would be inclined to believe that he wouldn't have become that, if his parents wouldn't have encouraged him. So, conclusion, some parents want their kids to be weightlifters, others want their kids to be movie stars, and some just want their kids to be MDs. And thats how they direct them.

Also, getting Indians involved in activities is something nice. Modern day teenagers want to be like their American counter parts. King and queen of prom. Parents don't want their Indian son to be King of prom with an american girl at school. So, they get togather and find him an Indian queen of prom in some small, unadvertised event. So? Whats wrong with it? The Vietnamese do it, the chinese do it. why can't we?

By ABC on Saturday, June 12, 1999 - 09:47 pm:

BOY OH BOY.....FIRST TIME READING ALL THIS STUFF ON THIS PAGE. LOOKS LIKE YOU GUYS ARE ALL READY TO PULL EACH OTHERS HAIR OUT. EDITOR JI... PLEASE
DO YOU HAVE ANY ADVICE FOR THESE INNOCENT KIDS...THEY NEED SOME.PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEGATIVE BELIEFS ABOUT INDIAN WOMEN DON'T SEEMS TO RESPECT THEIR MOTHERS, SISTERS AND THEIR DAUGHTERS.PLEASE, BEFORE YOU REVEAL ANY OF THE INDIAN WOMEN'S SECRET BODY PART ON INTERNET,TRY TO CONSIDER THAT YOUR SISTER IS ALSO GOING TO READ THAT CRAP.IF YOU DON'T LIKE INDIAN WOMEN, FINE....GO TO SPACE AND FIND SOME BOOM SHAKA LAKKA
.....STILL YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY.YOU GUYS NEED TO HAVE SOME LIFE, I MEAN REAL LIFE. BEAUTY IS ALWAYS IN THE EYES, NOT ANY WHERE ELSE,IN REAL SENSE.NOW, I MIGHT SEE HUNDRED OF PAGES WRITTEN BY YOU PEOPLE IN RESPONSE TO MY FEW WORDS BUT,AM I GOING TO CHANGE MY VIEWS? I DON'T THINK SO. SO PLEASE, THINK WHAT EVER YOU FEEL LIKE THINKING ABOUT INDIAN WOMEN BUT DON'T MAKE FUN OF THEIR BODIES.BECAUSE IT HURTS, DEEP IN HEART. I WAS SO SAD TO KNOW THAT MY BROTHERS WERE MAKING FUN OF ME. YOU MIGHT CALL ME SOMETHING LIKE 'VERY CONSERVATIVE' NO PROBLEM, STILL LOVE YOU ALL.
PEACE....

By rajesh on Monday, June 21, 1999 - 05:21 pm:

dear simon

ok aggreed inner beauty is important then external beauty . but what about our fantacies which we are having since the very beginning about having a beautiful life partner.i am getting married to my fiancee in october of this year. to discribe her , she is an average looking girl .but i can see the inner beauty of herself and the way in which she will handle myself and my family. it will be definately nice. she has the capabilities. but i always liked fair girls and she is not that much fair and her hairs are short and i always liked long hairs. thats the point where the beauty comes into picture. i am still attracted to beautiful girls down the lane coz my fiancee is not satisfying with what i discussed above. what will be the position after my marriage if there things continues. may be i will end up in an extramerital affair . so i am marrying to a girl that has the inner beauty but she is not beautiful outside. this will create the problems afterwards.also i would like to state at this point that she is completely satisfied with me coz i have almost all the capabilities which a girl looks for in her future partner.if u are a married one tell me yr experiences and tell me till what time the sexual attraction last after marriage coz if its for a short time then i can compromise .

By opinion on Wednesday, June 23, 1999 - 10:40 am:

Rajesh,

Stop and think. Having doubts before marriage is not good. Unless you are absolutely sure... DO NOT get married. Marriage is a life looong commitment, not your average day to day decisions. She deserves a husband who will love or like her for who she is. She has her hopes, dreams and wishes not to be broken by a guy who goes out and has an extra-marital affairs. Knowing your hesitation don't jeopardize and impact her life in a negative way if you are confused and unsure about your beliefs.

By Miss shy on Monday, July 24, 2000 - 05:31 pm:

Can someone just please tell me why its okay for indian men to be seen going out with an non-indian and it will be totally okay with his mates and the whole world but when it comes to an indian woman, she is out of order....

A friend of mine has been with her man for over 4yrs now and she still gets bitchy comments from every indian she see when shes with him.....

So why is it okay for a man to date or marry a non-indian and not for women????

does it really matter about the skin, as long as the person is nice and treats u with respect...coz boy we're not getting from our own.

By Dexter on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 04:02 am:

Miss Shy,

I wish I could answer that question without giving or receiving any bias. Some folks of various races, cultures or religions seem to give some males leniency when dating women of other groups than their female counterparts. Maybe because we males are taught by society to pursue women and women are taught by society not to pursue but to be the pursued, I guess in Indian or any other society that women are going against the grain (or against their nature so to speak) when they pick out or date guys that are different than they are. I could be wrong with this particular analysis, but I'll give another example.

Maybe it's the desire or temptation of "forbidden fruit" that makes it okay for some guys to date or marry women of other groups, but looked down upon when women do the same thing (according to their particular culture).

I'm not condoning this, Miss Shy. I'm just going by my own observations. In fact, in America during the times of post-Reconstruction and Jim Crow times (late 19th century to early 20th century), many white males took women of other cultures as either wives or concubines and hardly anyone had anything negative to say about those men; the women however were either banished or was given a reputation as being "loose", which was obviously false. During slavery, many white male slaveowners had either unconsented sex, or had affairs with their female black slaves and prevented their own wives from doing the same thing with their male slaves by saying that they have tails or deformed in some other way.

The bottom line is, is that some folks want their cake and eat it too, but hate it when someone else get to eat cake also.

Miss Shy, do you think you can elaborate on this subject on the "Indian women dating non-Indian men" link?

By Dexter on Tuesday, July 25, 2000 - 12:16 pm:

Miss Shy,

You might want to elaborate on this subject on the "Indian women dating non-Indian men" link or the "Indian men dating non-Indian women" link. Either one will be ok.

By Anonymous on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 01:39 pm:

DEAR SIR

I AM A GIRL AND LIKE TO MAKE MY BODY SEXY. BUT I HAVE NO EXECISE FOR IT.
IF YOU CAN ,PLEASE SENT ME SOME
EXERCISE SHADULS. THANK YOU.

SULO.

By looking for a date on Sunday, September 10, 2000 - 05:53 am:

well this looks like a pretty intense discussion forum..folks i am looking for a goodlooking, smart, funny and mature guy to date and be friends with..from,
a goodlooking, smart and intense girl.

By Anonymous on Monday, October 16, 2000 - 05:14 pm:

I LOVE SEXY SCHOOL GIRLS

By Lee Danial on Tuesday, October 31, 2000 - 10:02 pm:

To begin with, love does not require beauty, love properly understood, is one of an array of the forces in nature that can actually be directed by the human psyche, to perform acts which have historically been universally referred to as miracles. But that's a subject for a different forum. Beauty is a visual stimulus that attracts the interest of all humans, but cannot be explained by human language, a spider is no doubt beautiful to another spider, or is it, we have no way of knowing. But in the human, certain combinations of curves, colors, and symmetry, attract erotic interest, (eros in it's platonic sense), again, an attraction that cannot be explained with only the tool of language. In nature, EVERY SHAPE, attracts a particular type of energy. (That statement is closed to debate). The pyramid builders understood this,and all who study the invisible forces are aware of it. Allow me to add that ALL force is invisible. For instance, we all know what electricity can do, but none of us know what it is. Love is, very simply, our name for a particular force, which humans are able to utilise if they choose to do so, with "miraculous" results.The tendency however, is to become victims of our OWN love, to the point sometimes of near disability. This is niether good, nor bad, it is simply the nature of this particular force. Those who learn to manipulate love, are commonly referred to as charismatics, such as Adolph Hitler, or John Kennedy, or if they choose to direct it to the benefit of those other than themselves, they are referred to as christs, or buddahs,etc. There is no such thing as a universal beauty, a tiger does not refuse to eat a child of extraordinary beauty, nor is a mouse attracted to an eagle of extraordinary beauty. On the other hand, love, IS, a universal force, that for better or worse, humans,as well as all other creatures, are subject to. Does not that imply then that love is an element of the life force itself? Of course. Beauty is sensual and pleasing, but is not essential to life, love is powerful and ethereal, and has no need of sensual beauty. Beauty only attracts,love assimilates. It is gratifying when one can love that which is also beautiful, but an unpleasent element of human nature, is that the beauty of the body, is normally accompanied by an arrogance of the spirit, (there are few indeed, who do not enjoy adoration), and that which attracts you, will also attract others, then, should the one of beauty, ignore all further attempts for his/her attention? That seldom happens. To any who know how to interpret without passion, beauty ALWAYS contains sadness as an intrinsic, love NEVER does, only the loss of love. Life without beauty, would be unpleasent, life without love, would be impossible. These few thoughts, will mean little, to nothing, to the young. It matters not, unpleasant experiences are the best teacher. and since one does not become wise without pain, the love of physical beauty may therefore be as valid teacher as any other path one could follow. When one refers to an "inner beauty", they're referring to something quite apart from "beauty". The phenomenon of inner beauty, is clearly the manifestation of love directed outward. If you have seen the "inner beauty" of another person, then you have experieced a minor demonstration of the force of love, whether it was intentional or just incidental. The beauty contained in love is ineffable, and cannot be visualized. I wish these things could be said in ways that did not sound quite as clinical, or philosophical, but we havn't developed our languages along those lines. (At least not our common vernacular). If this gives just one person, a reason to think a little higher, I am deeply grateful.

By Gabriel on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 12:30 pm:

Hi People,

I'm new to this site and decided upon contributing purely because I found the discussion rather interesting ... and a little controversial as well I might add. Most of you have come across the saying that beauty is only skin deep. I've always believed in that oft-quoted yet overstated little comment. However, it remains unfortunate that for many looks are still an important factor in determining whether or not a relationship should be imminent. After all, everyone is aware that first impressions are important - if not crucial. However, the very first impression a person has of us is from our appearance. That is, not only our physical features but our clothing as well. It's often stated that a person should not judge a book by its cover but reality dictates that, through the mere act of being human, most of us confine ourselves to superficiality.

There is a book by Roald Dahl titled "The Twits". Despite being published for a young audience it holds points which are of great worth to everyone. In particular, the book teaches us that even if a person is physically lacking (eg in appearance) they become more attractive to us provided their personalities shine through. In simple words I would say that someone might have crooked teeth but if you know them to be warm and loving people, then you'll come to adore that smile as much as the person's character.

Hope you don't mind me rambling on .. but this is an issue which I find very interesting. Whatever turn the world takes, I believe that looks will remain important for most .... expecially where men are concerned - after all ... we're such simple creatures. However, recent years have seen women's magazines placing a great deal of importance on how men look as well. No longer is hair on your chest considered a sign of masculinity. It's a sign of being single. As someone stated to me so eloquently once .... numerous men are now walking into salons askign for the attendant to wax their back, their crack and their sack. Sorry about being so crass people ....

Here's a Sufi story about what real love is .... I hope you all appreciate it.

Two lovers decide upon getting married but the woman insists that they hold back until the man can truly tell her who he is. He replies, rather curiously, that he's her lover - the man she has loved her whole life. She becomes teary and walks away from him ... asking him to stay away until he realises his true
self.

The man wanders alone for months .. wondering what she meant. One day, yearning once more to feel her touch .. he runs his own fingers across his cheeks .. in a similar manner to what she used to do. The brief touch of his own hands across his face help remind him of what her hands felt like. Then ... his sole question is answered within an instant.

He returns to his lover's home and knocks on the door. She asks out loud .. "Who is it?". He replies "It's you".

THE point of the story is to being attention to an ancient arabic word - ALZA - which means two hearts beating as one. Between you guys and myself ... I can only hope that I experience a similar relationship with someone one of these days.

Cheers,

Gabriel

PS: Someone write to me if they wanna share their thoughts.

By Gabriel on Friday, August 10, 2001 - 12:27 pm:

Hi People,

I'm new to this site and decided upon contributing purely because I found the discussion rather interesting ... and a little controversial as well I might add. Most of you have come across the saying that beauty is only skin deep. I've always believed in that oft-quoted yet overstated little comment. However, it remains unfortunate that for many looks are still an important factor in determining whether or not a relationship should be imminent. After all, everyone is aware that first impressions are important - if not crucial. However, the very first impression a person has of us is from our appearance. That is, not only our physical features but our clothing as well. It's often stated that a person should not judge a book by its cover but reality dictates that, through the mere act of being human, most of us confine ourselves to superficiality.

There is a book by Roald Dahl titled "The Twits". Despite being published for a young audience it holds points which are of great worth to everyone. In particular, the book teaches us that even if a person is physically lacking (eg in appearance) they become more attractive to us provided their personalities shine through. In simple words I would say that someone might have crooked teeth but if you know them to be warm and loving people, then you'll come to adore that smile as much as the person's character.

Hope you don't mind me rambling on .. but this is an issue which I find very interesting. Whatever turn the world takes, I believe that looks will remain important for most .... expecially where men are concerned - after all ... we're such simple creatures. However, recent years have seen women's magazines placing a great deal of importance on how men look as well. No longer is hair on your chest considered a sign of masculinity. It's a sign of being single. As someone stated to me so eloquently once .... numerous men are now walking into salons askign for the attendant to wax their back, their crack and their sack. Sorry about being so crass people ....

Here's a Sufi story about what real love is .... I hope you all appreciate it.

Two lovers decide upon getting married but the woman insists that they hold back until the man can truly tell her who he is. He replies, rather curiously, that he's her lover - the man she has loved her whole life. She becomes teary and walks away from him ... asking him to stay away until he realises his true
self.

The man wanders alone for months .. wondering what she meant. One day, yearning once more to feel her touch .. he runs his own fingers across his cheeks .. in a similar manner to what she used to do. The brief touch of his own hands across his face help remind him of what her hands felt like. Then ... his sole question is answered within an instant.

He returns to his lover's home and knocks on the door. She asks out loud .. "Who is it?". He replies "It's you".

THE point of the story is to being attention to an ancient arabic word - ALZA - which means two hearts beating as one. Between you guys and myself ... I can only hope that I experience a similar relationship with someone one of these days.

Cheers,

Gabriel

PS: Someone write to me if they wanna share their thoughts.